The locations of the sun, star, and moon stones on the original Nauvoo Temple (dedicated at night 30Apr1846) are shown in the picture below.  The 4th floor of the rebuilt structure will have a window that has the star motif (shown in the figure).   The conversation follows the figure.
 

Subject: [888] Nauvoo temple
Author: Stephen (last name withheld)
Date:   11/12/2000 7:25 am MDT

Anyone seen the 5 pointed star windows that are being put in the Nauvoo temple.

Go check them out at http://www.ldstemplepage.org/newnauvoo.html
What do you all think it means symbolically.
STEVE

Subject: Be wise and careful with this thread
Author: a sister
Date:   11/12/2000 4:35 pm MDT

This could be a VERY dangerous thread because it could destroy or seriously shake the testimonies of saints in moments of weakness. I see this thread leading people into dark places. I feel that the main intent of this thread is to be just another 'proof' that the LDS church is false. [which it isn't].

First of all, recall that symbolism is truly "in the eye of the beholder". I can look at a blue wall and call it blue, and another person can look at the same blue wall and call it black. Enemies against the church are at this very moment calling the "five star windows" on the Nauvoo temple a proof that we are a satan-based church and we are a cult.

I pondered the symbolism of the five starred window, and just to show you that everybody CHOOSES how they want to see a symbol, allow me to share with you what I felt about the star. [and there could layers and layers of meanings. This is only a drop in the bucket of examples].

The five points of the star could represent the five WISE virgins, who are united together through Christ. Christ is the center space of the star [which happens to be pointing UP like an arrow, and is also shaped like a mountain], and our lives should be "centered" in Him. Each point on the star not only touches the circle, but is also enveloped in it. This circle could represent the "inner circle" of  saints, or The Church of the Firstborn. It also represents the love and protection of the Lord, who   "encircles" us in the arms of His love. It is "all encompassing" and "everlasting" and "has no  beginning or end"...thus ETERNAL.

Another symbol could be one of overcoming the world. The star is upside down, but the center of it  resembles an arrow going up. So, it could represent that as we go through our trials and adversity  [which the #4 symbolizes - and the window is on the 4th floor], we can overcome the natural man and the temptations of satan [the upside down star] and be led up [the center "arrow" of the star] to  heaven. If we endure our trials in a Christlike way, then we can move up, even in the midst of these  trials, and enjoy the fruits of eternal life [the circle]. The Lord uses the #4 and derivatives of it when  he shows us the trials of others in the scriptures. For instance, in Noah's time, it rained FOURty days and FOURty nights. Christ fasted FOURty days. Moses and the children of Israel had to wander in the wilderness for FOURty years. It took FOURty years of severe trials until the Salt LakeTemple was built. Joseph Smith was not allowed to take the golden plates out of the hill until FOUR  years had past.

Here's another possible symbol: It could represent the impending happenings that are prophesied of that accompany the Lord's second coming. After the earth has gone through the "ripening of iniquity" symbolize by the #4 [adversity, hardship, etc. - and the window is on the 4th floor], the Lord shall come again, and one of things that will happen is that the "stars will fall from heaven"...thus, the upside down [falling] star. The arrow pointing up in the middle of the star could represent the dead  rising from their graves at the time of his coming, AND the righteous living who shall be quickened and lifted up to the clouds to meet Him, AND the birth [rise] of the new Millennium, AND the "mountain of the Lord's house" being cleansed and redeemed. [see D&C 29:14 for reference to the stars falling at the time of His coming].

The upside down star can symbolize the minions of satan, the mortal servants of satan, and even satan himself, being cast down "to the pit" and bound at the time of Christ's coming [Christ being the arrow pointing up]. And for the righteous, satan will be cast away from them for all eternity [the circle].

And lastly, here's one more to ponder: The Lord teaches us that ALL things testify of him. He didn't say SOME things do, he said ALL things do. There's a lesson to be learned about Christ in ALL things. See Moses 6:63 for an explanation. He doesn't leave anything out...he even says that "temporal" things testify of him.

Those are just some of the symbolic meanings I was impressed with as I pondered the star. I am sure the church has its own symbol for it, and I guarantee you that it isn't an evil symbol. I know many apostates and anti-"Mormons" think that the church people/leaders are "idiots", but I seriously doubt that a church that professes to be followers of Christ would be so idiotic as to openly display a symbol that some people consider a sign of the devil or witches *for the intention of evil*. If we really were an evil church [and we're not], do you think we'd openly display it with the sign of the 'devil' FOR THAT REASON [to display evil], and thus cause many people who might have come to the church to run away?? No, if this church were evil and wicked, we'd certainly not openly display it. For satan and his servants are masters of DECEPTION. They don't openly display "their wares". They lead people to hell with a velvet chain.

Remember, brothers and sisters...there is OPPOSITION in all things. That means, clearly stated, that there is a GOOD side to EVERYTHING and a BAD side to EVERYTHING. Even a star that happens to have two points up and one point down.  Symbolism is a powerful tool in the hands of the Lord, AND in the hands of the devil. OUR responsibility is to CHOOSE how we'll use the symbolism. Symbolic learning is a CHOICE. Like I said, I can choose to see the good, or I can choose to call it bad. It's always in the eye of the beholder. If I were an anti-mormon, I'd most certainly call it evil and LEAVE IT AT THAT. But I choose to see the good. Anything less than that is FAULT FINDING, which is clearly evil in the sight of God and Jesus Christ. That is why this thread can be dangerous. Stop trying to find the bad in things and focus your attention on JESUS CHRIST...the SAVIOR AND REDEEMER OF THE WORLD. Focus upon His love, His atonement, His grace, His beauty, and his TRUTH. Why all these tangents??

 Why all this nit picking? If you have your focus upon *anything* else but the Lord and His goodness, then you have strayed off the path, and it's time to repent.

 With love, a sister.

Subject: RE: Be wise and careful with this thread
Author: Randall (last name withheld from this and subsequent posts)
Date:   11/13/2000 8:15 am MDT

What Boyd Packer and others call "faith-promoting" conversation is limited to that which serves to support the accepted view. Anything considered non-supportive to the accepted view is forbidden  conversation.

Actually, I think it is the opposite... that what Packer calls "faith-promoting" is actually "faith-weakening". A muscle not exercised becomes weak and flabby. Packer and others advocate that one be a spiritual-couch-potato.

It has always bothered me that the brethren advocate a sort of "don't-ask, don't tell" policy in direct contradiction to the invitation by God to "ask and ye shall receive."

As Joseph Smith (the third) so eloquently put it: "Truth does not suffer from investigation; error alone flourishes in the dark; and resists examination."

One only needs to reflect on which is the one who is "hiding in the dark"?

Randall 

Subject: [symbol of bright and morning star = Christ]
Author: Shinehah2 of Laneshine
Date:   11/12/2000 10:09 pm MDT
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 7:38 PM
Subject: Nauvoo Temple Websites

Dear Friends --

Here are a few intriguing websites about the Nauvoo Temple. Nick Laterski  has done an especially nice job -- with many interesting links to other pages. As Nick points out, rumors are rampant -- some of which are outright  false. But these websites appear to be well regarded.

http://www.ldstemplepage.org/nauvoolinks.html

http:www.ldstemplepage.org

http://www.ldstemplepage.org/newnauvoo.html

The following website involves applying for a Commemorative Illinois License  plate -- that can be displayed on your Illinois registered vehicle -- 60 days before the Dedication of the Nauvoo Temple -- Starting in February 2001. Can you believe what a joyful moment this will be to the memory of the Nauvoo  Saints.

Indeed the Lord is keeping his promises. As Joseph told the saints in Nauvoo, it will be a long time after you leave this life before you reach the celestial kingdom. So far, it has taken 153 years since they were driven from the United States before the Lord has performed this strange and marvelous work in Nauvoo.

http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~k-allan/license.htm

- - - - - - - - -

This website explains many of the symbolic stones -- the sun stones, the moon  stones, the star stones, 5 point inverted, 6 point and 12 point.

http://users.marshall.edu/~brown/nauvoo/symbols.html

Here is an excerpt concerng the 5 pointed inverted star.

THE FIVE-POINTED STARS

The five-pointed star is often represented as the morning star. The descending ray of the Nauvoo Temple's inverted five-point starstones (there is only one surviving example and it is damaged) was extended downward. Such an orientation suggests the rising morning star. This "star" is not a star at all, but the planet Venus. Venus' brightness is a reflection of the sun, which invisible below the horizon. The extended ray portrays the source of the morning stars brightness, not the planet itself, but the sun's brilliance.

Through a unique orbital characteristic Venus shares a relationship with the five-pointed star. Carl G. Liungman explains: "If one knows the ecliptic and can pinpoint the present position of the planets in relation to the fixed star of the zodiac, it is possible to mark the exact place in the 360 degrees of the zodiac where the Morning star first appears shortly before sunrise after a period of invisibility. If we do this, waiting for the Morning star to appear again 584 days later (the orbital time of Venus) and mark its position in the zodiac, and then repeat this process until we have five positions of Venus as the Morning star, we will find that exactly eight years plus one day have passed. If we then draw a line from the first point marked  to the second point marked, then to the third, and so on, we end up with a  pentagram [five-pointed star]" (Dictionary of Symbols, 1991, pp. 333-334). No other celestial object, whether planet or star, has this orbital characteristic; it is wholly unique to Venus (the Morning/Evening Star).

Furthermore, between the starstones in the frieze were circular windows. The architect's drawing of these windows repeated the motif of the starstones with inverted five-pointed stars, unifying the design of this part of the temple.

Jesus Christ is called the "bright and morning star" (Rev 22:16). The starstones on the Nauvoo Temple, some with their unique lengthened ray, are a fitting symbol of Jesus Christ as the morning star. Additionally, the circle is a symbol of eternity and it is wholly fitting that the symbol of Jesus Christ in the circular windows (five-pointed stars) was framed by a circle.

                   - - - - - - - -

Subject: RE: [5-pointed star windows in LDS Nauvoo temple]
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/13/2000 7:17 am MDT

In contemplating the meaning of the inverted pentagram as a motif on the (Nauvoo) temple, one needs to also consider a couple of other things.

First, notice the placing of the star on the original Nauvoo structure. There were moon stones at the bottom, sun stones over the moon stones, and then the star stones were placed in the higher position.  Inasmuch as the order should be star -> moon ->sun, why is it moon -> sun -> star? Why is the star inverted as well?

Second, one needs to notice the floor plan of the Nauvoo structure as well as what happened inside it. History tells of an evolving construction as well as use. Notice that the floor plan is two floors of assembly rooms and attic offices which is identical to the Kirtland structure, although the Nauvoo temple has a basement with font which did not appear at Kirtland.  The Nauvoo temple was used for  the masonic-style endowment, which took place of the Kirtland endowment, but notice that the (Nauvoo) temple was never designed for such. The assembly rooms (first and second floor) were not suited for the later endowment, so it was carried out in the attic rooms (originally designed for administration offices rather than endowment rooms).

The three floors above ground are those represented by the outer motifs on the temple building of sun, moon, and star. The attic floor ideally should be represented by (administration of the) sun, which is the highest of the three. But, it is not. Rather, the inverted star decorates the attic floor.

It all has to do with what happened in Mormon history, which is identical in its essence as that contained in the Old Testament travels of the (fallen) Israelites out of Egypt, led by Moses.

When one finally comes to understand what is meant by the endowment, then the temple (building) will have served its purpose and will no longer be needed. That is why John saw in his vision of the New Jerusalem that there is no temple there. As it stands now, the temple buildings stand as monuments to (carnal) man's failure to understand the meaning. Thus, the (necessary and good) work for the dead goes on.

Randall 

Subject: Thanks
Author: a sister
 Date:   11/13/2000 8:46 am MDT

Thanks "Shinehah2" for the post about the symbolism of the window and the morning star. I would say to Randall that this definately isn't "hiding in darkness" - this explanation is on the internet [and I'm sure other places] for the entire world to read about. And I repeat my words in my previous post: it is a sin to seek out and point out weakness in others [see the "beam and mote" story in the Bible].  It is wrong to look for weakness. We are to look for strength. The Lord is in charge, and it is HIS job to reveal our weaknesses to us. Don't worry if so-and-so is doing a bad job or is messing up. They'll all be held accountable for their sins, just like we will. We need to be in charge of ourselves and work on our salvation. Let the Lord do the cleansing of the church. We all know that the church isn't perfect, and in fact, it is FAR from perfect. But that's why the Lord is going to come down and CLEAN HIS HOUSE FIRST before He cleanses the world. We can be lights unto those in the church who are stumbling, falling, and struggling. We can help LIFT them to greater heights. That cannot be done by badmouthing people nor can it be done by feeling and exibiting bitterness. That cannot be done by leaving the church and trying to encourage others to leave, too. Think of it - you'll be accountable for all people that you have led away. I mourn that fact. Nobody can be truly happy when they're critical. No amount of rationalizing will make it so, either. As the little bunny on "Bambi" said, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." He was so cute when he said it, but he spoke a profound truth.

Subject: isn't this hypocritical?
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/13/2000 10:11 am MDT

Sister (anonymous) the one who claims to "not hide in the dark":

You give an interesting answer that I have seen often.

Question: Why is it that you find fault with finding fault?

Isn't this hypocritical?

Did Jesus sin (per your words) when he found fault with the Pharisees, etc?

Randall  

Subject: RE: isn't this hypocritical?
Author: a sister
Date:   11/13/2000 10:34 am MDT

No, I'm not being hypocritical because I'm not finding fault with you or anybody else. I merely pointed out truths that are found in the scriptures...i.e. that the church is going to have serious enough problems that it will need to be cleansed, and also that looking for weakness in others and fault finding is a sin. I feel it was perfectly alright for the Lord to point out the weaknesses of others because he is the Lord and he said that HE and only HE can do this. It isn't our place. Yes, we can raise warning voices as prompted by the Spirit. But we NEVER do it in a condescending, critical way. I see criticism happening a lot on this website - particularly against the LDS church, and I also feel it can and will happen on this Nauvoo temple window thread. Could it be that people are straining at a gnat instead of seeking Christ and His goodness? Not a criticism...just a question .

Subject: RE: isn't this hypocritical?
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/13/2000 11:34 am MDT

You are replying so fast, must be sitting right at your puter (like me). (c:

Yes, I think you make a profound observation. People often strain at that which is not important rather than seeking Christ. Criticism or not of church doesn't matter. Truth will always stand as same with our without criticism or a (so-called) defense from criticism.

Seeking Christ means to do the same that Jesus showed how to do, not to seek the person of Jesus.  He will tell you not to worship him (Jesus) as Lord, but to worship the Father within you... the same Father within him. That is why he often said that "I (Jesus) can do nothing...", "It is the Father that doeth the works...". Man makes an error when he looks to others for his guidance. It can be taken different ways... from a spirit from the other side, a pastor/evangelist like Billy Graham, a church president like Hinckley, or even the man called Jesus. Yes, Jesus became the Christ, but so are all men to turn to the Father and become an "Only begotten Son (or Daughter), a "King" and "Queen", Priest and priestess. We are not to worship the manifestation of God) Jesus, but rather the Christ, which is also in you. When I started to find this Christ within, afterwards did I meet the man Jesus in the flesh. It would have been wrong to have it the other way. All are able to do this same thing, but few have, opting to worship some man instead.

The organization of heaven is not an Amway-like pyramid with rulers at the top and slave/workers at the bottom. This is how LDS portray it. When one seeks God, one finds that he is much more perfect than can be imagined. There is no pyramid, just Fathers and Sons/Daughters. Every person comes (and goes) to the same source.

Randall

Subject: postscript/correction
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/13/2000 11:43 am MDT

 (quote from previous message)  "There is no pyramid, just Fathers and Sons/Daughters."

There is a typo here that changes everything into what can be taken a wrong way. Father should be singular, not plural. There is only one (Heavenly) Father/Mother.

Randall

Subject: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/13/2000 10:26 am MDT

Regarding the comment that the "Lord will clean his House"... that the "House of the Lord" means "the church"... maybe you refer to the wrong "house"?

The true temple ("House" of God). No, it is not the (temple) buildings. The true temple is you. When Jesus cleansed the Temple (threw out the moneychangers, etc), it was a metaphor about us cleansing the true temple. Jesus already cleansed his House (temple). Now it is up to each of us to do same.

The house that is supposed to be cleansed is the true "house of God" which refers to the true temple.

The church will continue in its corruption and will eventually pass away. That is why it has always happened this way in history. It is no different today with the LDS, which will eventually pass away as all of them have done. New wine (metaphor for the spirit) is placed in new bottles (metaphor for the new person after the carnal has passed away) not into old bottles (per the idea that the church proper will be cleansed).

Randall  

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: a sister
Date:   11/13/2000 3:42 pm MDT

I totally agree that we are "temples" - as this is clearly taught in the scriptures. We certainly are to have our own "temples" cleansed - our own inner and outer vessels [beginning with the inner vessel first]. I also know that our temples [buildings] that "dot the land" are in serious need of cleansing, too. They were created in purity, but have been defiled by man. Many people enter the temples with pure hearts, notwithstanding their weakness. But others enter the temple with impure hearts - hearts full of worldly desires, lusts, criticism, hatefulness, bitterness, carnality, pride, etc. I recall standing in the Celestial room once and a woman walked up to our group and told a joke...a DIRTY joke. Yes, right in the temple. I know of other people who lie on their temple recommend interviews - they are secret enemies of the church and they enter the temples to make tape recordings, and do other things so as to feed the fuels for the anti-LDS campaigns. This, too, is a way our temples have become polluted. It is sad for those who are pure in heart. But one day, the Lord will cleanse those temples, too.

But my main thing I was trying to point out is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, though it contains the fulness of the gospel and the priesthood, still is in serious need of a good spring cleaning. The Lord, in His omniscience, knew this would be the case, and that is why he taught about it - the eventual need for cleansing. In D&C 112:24-26 it says, "Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon MY HOUSE shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; FIRST among those of you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me IN THE MIDST OF MY HOUSE, saith the Lord."

The Lord is a God of order, not of confusion. He has things set up a certain way. He has His church set up a certain way. His "house" means many things, but in the above verse it means His CHURCH. His church is filled with people who profess to know him. Many DO know Him, and many do not. Many are filled with pride. Many are filled with love. There are leaders who will slip and others who will fall completely. There are others who are at this time very faithful and good, and others who are being filled with pride and are slipping. We will see some serious things happen in the church which will try the faith of even the more elect members. It will shake the weaker saints to the very dust, and they WILL fall because they live on borrowed light. The Lord has appointed a prophet and apostles, etc., but we are to listen to and discern their words through the Spirit. We are supposed to be house of order, not a house of confusion. Much disorder arises when people "follow blindly". Now,   I do not say this in a condescending way in an attempt to feed the fires of apostates. I am merely  pointing out that we are commanded to discern truth from error in all things. And yet we are also supposed to be obedient.

The Lord is looking upon our hearts. I am not a blind follower. I am submissive, yes, but only in the things the prophets have taught us to do. For instance, I read the Book of Mormon daily [and other scriptures], I have family home evening, I pray daily, I pay my tithing, etc. These are commandments that the prophets have passed to us and/or reminded us of. "Commands" and "opinions" are two different things. A prophet could stand up and tell the people that men are from Mars. I must take anything he says [or ANYBODY says] to the Lord for confirmation. If the prophet, in his mortal weakness, says something that is in error [like we ALL do], that doesn't mean I go on a rampage and start badmouthing him. I merely realize he is a man with weaknesses common to man, and I love him anyway. And I forgive him - I'm commanded to forgive. "Whoso is angry with his brother...."  We are all to love each other, no matter WHAT.

Anyway, any pride, bitterness, hatred, suspicion, etc. in the church is going to be burned away when the Lord comes. He'll start with us! Then he'll move on and cleanse the world. The Church will truly pass away - although the priesthood will NOT. BUT....it will also be renewed in a perfect state - a true Zion like it should be. And then ALL will see eye to eye, for all will come to know the Lord.

As far as you saying that you've come back into the presence of the Lord in the flesh - well....two things cause me to feel that you really haven't. One: Anybody who is sanctified to the point of being righteous enough to come back into the Lord's presence in THIS life, is going to be "like him". I happen to know that the Lord's way is not to badmouth people - that he is kind and loving. He INVITES, he doesn't scream. He lifts...not tears down. So, in my estimation, people who cut down our church and badmouth the saints and leaders [no matter what weaknesses are manifest] are not having an eye single to the glory to God because they are not building up. Critical natures are not edifying, uplifting, praiseworthy, or of good report. Whatever you focus on in your life, increases. If you focus upon the weakness of the brethren, your bitterness, mistrust, disgust, and so on, increases.

Two: Coming back into the presence of the Lord in the flesh is an extremely sacred thing. I *guarantee* you that this sacred event isn't something that is to be shared openly with others on an internet site, for all the world to see.

It's hard to convey emotions over the internet, so I hope that you understand that my words are coming gently, with no anger whatsoever.

Love....a sister.

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/14/2000 6:37 am MDT

quoted from previous message:
" D&C 112:24-26 it says, "Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord. And upon MY HOUSE shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; FIRST among those of you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me IN THE MIDST OF MY HOUSE, saith the Lord." (end quote)

This message refers to the body as the House (of God) as well as the present time (as opposed to a future time). That is also why all things are fulfilled in this (every) generation (per the words of Jesus to his disciples).

To comprehend what it means, one needs to drop all preconceived notions and come to a completely new way of thinking. The Lord works from the inside out and in the present time. All the scriptures and spiritual metaphors are meant to be comprehended at their highest meaning to refer to the individual in the present moment.

Stop waiting around for something to happen (eg. the Lord to come to clean his house). It is not the "Lord 'will' come", but the "Lord 'is' come". We just don't recognize him. That is why the early mormons were often told (as recorded in the D&C) that "... I am in the midst of you and ye know me not."

As a point of clarification, I did not say or intimate that I was in the presence of the Lord in the flesh, but that I had seen Jesus in the flesh. I can't understand why anyone would think that this is to be kept secret, except to refrain from casting pearls before swine. So in your suggestion to keep such a thing secret from this people, what are you saying about them?

Randall  

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: a sister
Date:   11/14/2000 1:15 pm MDT

 I guess I haven't made myself clear enough. I, too, believe that we ourselves are "the Lord's house"...or "His temple".   And again, the BUILDINGS are his temples. And, the whole church is "his house", too.

I agree with you that the highest form of cleansing is to have our inner vessels cleansed. I also agree with you that the Lord is in our midst. But his "great and dreadful" second coming has not occurred yet; not the one where he appears to everyone and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.  There are those who reach a point of sanctification that they are changed bodily so that they can withstand the presence of the Lord in the flesh [their flesh] face to face without being burned. If anyone has come into the presence of the Lord any other way, they'd be a crispy critter, so to speak. The scriptures teach us clearly that this transformation has to take place or the person will burn and perish in His presence.

However, putting all this aside, the fact is - the church as a whole WILL indeed be cleansed. All spiritual things have hidden layers of meaning, much like onion skin has layers upon layers. So, yes, the souls of all of us must be cleansed. But mark my words, the Lord will most assuredly come down and separate the wheat from the tares in His church [even amongst the leaders], and then only those that remain will be Zion-hearted people and they can be united with Enoch and his Zion. I'm not here to convince you - it's not even my job. It's the Lord's.

You asked about whether I'm insinuating that the people are swine. Well, in the scriptures, the LORD  [not me] says "For it is not meet that the things *which belong to the children of the Kingdom should be given to them that are not worthy, or to dogs, or the pearls [sacred things] to be cast before swine". So in my estimation, people who are "swine" are people inside and outside the church who are not PREPARED for sacred things, and would trample them underfoot. They would disregard them as a thing of nought, or persecute, mock and ridicule. They would pervert the sacred things, much like the men who got a hold of the 116 pages of the lost manuscript had changed the words of the original. But I know that you are fully aware of what the Lord means by "swine". I feel you are just picking my words apart. So, in answer to your question...yes, I'm calling certain people "swine" - in the sense that the Lord means it, though. That doesn't mean I hold them in low regard, for I try to love all people as my brothers and sisters and children of God.

A sacred thing is called sacred for a reason. If it were meant to be shared openly to *anyone* then there would be no such thing as a sacred thing. Right? You also might walk down the street naked and show off your sacred 'parts', but you don't [at least I hope not!]. There are millions of people who get on the internet daily, and you don't know who is reading your posts on this website. I guarantee you, there are dogs and swine [symbolically speaking] among those who read. That's all I'll say on it.  You know as well as I do about all of this.

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/14/2000 2:20 pm MDT

There is strong emotion coming through in your words. Pardon, I don't mean to rile you. Please take following in spirit of free conversation... nothing else.

 (Quote from Sister anonymous) I was trying to point out is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, though it contains the fullness of the gospel and the priesthood, still is in serious need of a good spring cleaning. (end quote)

Maybe it is interesting that you have been making a big deal about how we shouldn't run down the  (LDS) church, but it seems to me that you have done most of that yourself?  Question: If God is indeed omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, then why do we think that there is something wrong with the church? When we say that the church is in need of care, do we deny that God is in control?... or do we say that he left it alone to do what it will? Maybe take care of it later?

Maybe the church is "perfect" after all. Now, that does not mean perfect in that it is without error, but that it is perfect for the needs and wants of the people. Consider this: when the Lord yields to the people's wishes and says that they can have a (earthly) king, does he err in doing this? Shall we "fix" what he has done because we think he made an error?

I will say that the church is perfect. It is just how it should be. But, what do I know?

(quote from Sister anonymous) "You also might walk down the street naked and show off your sacred 'parts', but you don't [at least I hope not!]." (end quote)

Maybe no one will care.

At any rate, your analogy is not a good one. Why is it that you think that one should hide a light under a bushel? If Joseph Smith told no one of seeing Jesus, where might you be at this very moment? The Lectures on Faith (part of the Kirtland endowment) say that this very thing we speak of is the beginning of faith. What would happen to faith if men would do as you suggest?

 (quote from Sister anonymous) "If anyone has come into the presence of the Lord any other way,  they'd be a crispy critter, so to speak." (end quote)

My experience is finding God to be much more loving than thought by folks who say things like this.  Most (so called) Christians look for a Christ who will return in wrath and do some real carnage to other folks on earth. But, maybe they will wait for this in vain and miss the real Christ.

I find God to be much more than I ever imagined. Willing to forgive all and make a celebration when  the prodigal returns from his journey. Loves all, no matter what. Overcomes with patience and charity, not vindiction and wrath. Turn and experience this too.

What is "crispy critter" anyway?

Randall  

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: a sister
Date:   11/14/2000 3:00 pm MDT

I am not riled - it's hard to convey emotion over an internet line.

God set up His church to be run a certain way and for the people to remain faithful. They have no remain faithful - at least not all of them. Those weak ones [tares] shall be removed. That's what is meant by cleaning house. The biggest reason of all for the tares to be removed is so that Christ can dwell with us face to face and we can behold His glory.

Crispy critter? Self explanatory. Slang for "burned". Speaking of burning - I in NO way think that the Lord is full of wrath and hatred. I am only relaying what the scriptures say. It seems that everything I put forth that comes from the scriptures is disagreed with. So perhaps you can take it up with the Lord. I am not the one that said that he will "burn the earth at His coming" and that he will also "burn the wicked". He said it.

As far as Joseph goes...he was commanded to share his vision with others. And he obeyed.  Concerning sharing "light" with others - the Lord doesn't contradict himself. He wants certain light to be shared - the gospel light. But VERY sacred things are to be share only with those of "like faith" or those who the Lord specifically directs us to share them with. Otherwise there would not be the command for us not to share our pearls with swine.

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/15/2000 6:46 am MDT

 (quoted) God set up His church to be run a certain way and for the people to remain faithful. (end quote)

Who told you this? Why is it soooooo important to remain faithful to a corrupt church (per your description) than faithful to God?

(quote) Crispy critter? Self explanatory. Slang for "burned". (end quote)

But, maybe the interpretation is wrong.  If God burns your body, only a shell is consumed and you will still be a living spirit (which is immortal).  Spiritual "burning" is much worse. It destroys the very reason for living/existing.

The Old Testament is a story of mans oft mis-interpretation of what God is saying. God says to sacrifice the beast (within), but man wants to kill animals (because he thinks in literal/material terms and thinks the beast is "without"). So, God then tells them that their sacrifices are an abomination to Him, but they think they must not be killing the animals in proper form or something like that, since they are still thinking outwardly. God says circumcise (the heart and soul), so carnal man cuts off his foreskins (of children, no less). Wasn't is the Christ who said that if man was meant to be circumcised, then he would come that way from his mother's womb?

Maybe same thing here in "crispy critter"? Literal meaning is the proverbial red herring.

Randall  

Subject: swine will live anyway
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/14/2000 2:36 pm MDT

Quote from Sister anonymous) "There are millions of people who get on the internet daily, and you don't know who is reading your posts on this website. I guarantee you, there are dogs and swine [symbolically speaking] among those who read." (end quote)

Yes, you are right that I have no idea of who reads what I say. I only trust that at least a few will benefit in some way. Maybe if none do, then it will be me alone who benefits by writing it.

At any rate, what will benefit the prepared will not poison the swine.

Maybe when we lose the idea of "swine among us", we will be more like the Samaritan Jesus spoke of.   Maybe that is when the tribes will again be united under one Father.

Randall  

Subject: RE: swine will live anyway
Author: a sister
Date:   11/14/2000 3:06 pm MDT

Randall...you're right, the swine will live anyway. And again - I'm only teaching what the scriptures say. From your writings, I am beginning to think that you don't don't take much from the scriptures, or you don't read/understand them. I'm not pointing fingers - I'm only making an observation from how I see it. Like I said in my previous post, the LORD said not to cast pearls before swine. I didn't say it.

We are mortal and we have no idea whatsoever what kind of impact our words may have on others.  Especially others who are unprepared. The Lord may have been preparing a certain person in his own special way, and that person may not be ready to read such a special sacred thing or hear of it. It may be the right thing at the wrong time. Does this make sense? That's why we have to be very careful. By disobeying the command to not cast our pearls before swine, we become the maker of our own rules, and we become disobedient to the Lord's commands - at least one of them in this case. Obedience is required in order to become like him, for He also obeys the Father.

Subject: RE: swine will live anyway
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/15/2000 7:21 am MDT

(quoted) " I am beginning to think that you don't don't take much from the scriptures, or you don't read/understand them. I'm not pointing fingers." (end quote)

Sort of.

Living Word is much more important than dead word. The living Word will tell you what the dead word means.

Remember when Jesus chastised the people for living by the dead word, but not by the living?: "(Ye) Search the scriptures; for in then ye think ye have eternal life... And ye will not come unto me that ye might have life."

This is a severe chastisement for existing by the written word rather than living by the Word (Christ is Word) that "is (always) written in your hearts." Carnal man ignores the latter in favor of worshiping the former.

In Lehi's dream, the "Rod of Iron" is synonymous with the "Word of God" which is synonymous with "Christ" (living word).  It means to hold to living Word, not scriptures.

Maybe one who exists by the dead word, but has not the living Word to tell what it means, then is prone to take it how it is not meant.

Randall  

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/14/2000 6:54 am MDT

(quoted from previous) "Then he'll move on and cleanse the world. The Church will truly pass away - although the priesthood will NOT." (end quote)

The false priesthood will indeed pass, but you are right that the true priesthood will not. Notice that the (so called) saving ordinances (eg. in the temple) are performed by "the priesthood". Have you ever wondered why so many sealings (marriages) done in the temple (buildings) by the (outer) priesthood, end in divorce?

There is no ordinance on earth or in heaven that can bind two hearts together (quoting the Christ).

The outer (physical) performances are a metaphor for the spiritual (true) ordinances. There is a place for these marriages to be solemnized in the true temple by the only one in authority to perform such.  The "only person with authority on earth" is the person who has the last word on whether one will remain married or not. If one wants to know who it is, then go to the nearest mirror and look deeply into your own eyes and ask if there is someone who resides behind the image you see. Only you (speaking of the true self as opposed to the ursurper self) can bind your heart and soul to another.  No one else has the authority.

As one comes to fully comprehend this, then the outer priesthood will pass as a leaf blown before a strong wind.

Randall  

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: a sister
Date:   11/14/2000 1:34 pm MDT

You said: Have you ever wondered why so many sealings [marriages] done in the temple [buildings] end up in divorce?

Answer: No, I don't wonder about it. Not any more than I would wonder why Catholic marriages, or Baptist marriages, or Jewish Marriages, or any other marriages end in divorce.

They end in divorce because we are all weak mortals who make big mistakes and very often don't solve problems in a Christlike way. We are weak mortals who give up, who run away, who lust after others, who think the grass is greener on the other side. I'll tell you why MY temple marriage ended in divorce. Because my husband was an adulterous man, and he was a verbally and physically abusive man. When my child was born, he became physically abusive with the newborn baby. I am not about to spend my life, let alone my eternity, with somebody who decided to become evil and take a bad path all of a sudden. I am not about to stick with him so he can kill my baby. I tried to help, I tried to encourage him, I tried to love him, I tried to stick by him. But he didn't want me around. Things got worse. End of story. I'm now with a man who honors his covenants, honors his priesthood, loves God and Jesus Christ, and loves me and our children. I can't change people. I can't change what my ex did. I can't change his agency - he chose to become a wicked man. I chose to try to remain righteous. But I CAN remove myself from abuse. I know for a fact that the Lord doesn't want us to willingly allow ourselves to be abused. That's like walking into a prison and saying, "Hi, here I am. Rape me. Beat me. Torture me. Oh, and while you're at it, kill my baby. I'll just stand here and smile and take it all in."

It isn't the priesthood that is wicked, for it is holy and honorable. But mankind defiles it. There are not many men who hold their priesthood in high regard and who cherish it.   Doctrine and Covenants gives a very vivid and clear warning to men who abuse their priesthood.

 We NEED the priesthood to be "sealed", and yet, you are absolutely right on the other issue - we, in our hearts, have to be fully committed to having our marriages be eternal, and we have to do all the things that it entails to make it that way. But I must add that it is a two way street. We cannot be sealed if one spouse goes against the union. I can't FORCE somebody to stay married to me. And by the same token, a person shouldn't have to be forced to remain with someone when their well being or even their very life is at risk.

As always, it is the foolishness and wickedness of mankind that pollutes the TRUE priesthood. That priesthood has been restored to the earth in these latter days by Jesus Christ Himself. No amount of rationalizing will change that fact. It's not the Lord's who perverts it in many instances, it is US.

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/14/2000 1:49 pm MDT

(quote from above about LDS temple divorce) "No, I don't wonder about it. Not any more than I would wonder why Catholic marriages, or Baptist marriages, or Jewish Marriages, or any other marriages end in divorce." (end quote)

You answer wisely.

(another quote) "It isn't the priesthood that is wicked, for it is holy and honorable. But mankind defiles it. There are not many men who hold their priesthood in high regard and who cherish it. Doctrine and Covenants gives a very vivid and clear warning to men who abuse their priesthood." (end quote)

It is unclear who you are referring to in this instance... those being married or those who are performing it. Maybe one can ask why is it that a (so called) Holy Priesthood fails at its task to seal folks in marriage?

Randall  

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: a sister
Date:   11/14/2000 3:11 pm MDT

I am not referring to the person who performs the sealing nor am I referring to the marriage partners. I  am referring to the power of the priesthood itself. The priesthood power which originates from Jesus Christ Himself.

The priesthood does not fail in its task to seal a marriage.  In fact, we are taught when we are sealed that our sealing is conditional upon our faithfulness, and if we prove faithful to Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, and keep our covenants which we have made, then our marriage will be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Remember, the Lord says He is only bound when we DO WHAT HE SAYS, otherwise we have no promise.

The priesthood power doesn't fail....people do.

Subject: RE: House to cleanse is true temple
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/15/2000 7:02 am MDT

 (quoted) "... we are taught when we are sealed that our sealing is conditional upon our faithfulness."  (end quote)

And it is a true teaching.  But, if faith is more important than priesthood, then why all this talk, talk, talk, about priesthood? Which has the most power if a (priesthood) ordinance (supposedly) seals a couple together, but it can be undone so easily by the couple?

Maybe outer priesthood is the form (image) that carnal man worships in his thinking that he is worshiping the true priesthood that it symbolizes.

This gets back to a question that comes up in science vs mysticism... Does matter pre-exist mind (as science thinks) or does mind pre-exist matter (per mysticism)? Which is the first and the most important, mind or matter? Which one is the "image" (form) worshiped by carnal man? In the present case... does priesthood pre-exist faith, or does faith pre-exist priesthood? Which is form and which is essence?

 (quoted) "... the Lord says He is only bound when we DO WHAT HE SAYS, otherwise we have no promise." (end quote)

Why is it that so many think that to listen to God means to listen to a church leader, guru, mystic, etc?  Why is it that so many think that God will not talk to you directly, but that he has to use the corporate structure of filtering down from the top?  Why do so many think that entrance to heaven is an attainment, achieved by jumping through the hoops?

Maybe that is the very thing that keeps man in his mode of being separate from the God who speaks to him in the present moment.

Randall  

Subject: The word of God
Author: a sister
Date:   11/15/2000 1:01 pm MDT

Dear Randall,

You are interpreting my words into meanings that were not intended. First of all, I don't "stay true to the church" and not the Lord. That doesn't mean to say that I don't attend church regularly. I do. I am even serving a mission at this time with my husband. I preach the GOSPEL. But my loyalty is not to  the church - my loyalty is to the Lord. I am VERY thankful for the church, though - because it was like a 'mother' to me. When I struggled in the past and didn't have truth, the people in the church taught me and directed me in the right path, and from there, I learned how to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. I see the weakness and fallible people in the church [even myself], but I have no right to condemn and no right to walk away. I am to take the beam out of my own eye, and then help my brothers and sisters do the same. I am here to LIFT others, not to ridicule and put them down, or to call them liars and false teachers, etc. I am not the Master Housecleaner - the Lord is. It is my duty and responsibility and JOY to remain among my brothers and sisters, and to bear testimony of the truth to them, and help to build a Zion type of life with those who will listen. The church is far from perfect. I am to recognize the weaknesses for the sole purpose of learning to avoid the same pitfalls. If I do anything but that [like criticize or run away], then I am off the mark.

Animal sacrifices - you are totally correct about the SYMBOLISM of the sacrifices. They are symbolic of the sacrificing of our carnal selves and becoming clean and one with the Lord. Yet you are wrong about man making up the rules on the sacrifices. *Yes, there were instances cited in the scriptures where people made their own rules about sacrificing. [in fact, people most often do still make their own rules, sadly]. But in many places in the scriptures, especially in the Old Testament, it is the LORD telling men how to sacrifice the animals - *step by step instructions*. When the Lord chastised the people for their sacrifices, it was because they were also worshipping idols and they  were living the letter of the law, and weren't coming to the Lord personally. They were just "following the rules" and not learning a thing. They weren't living by the "spirit of the law".

Sacrifice is all done in similitude of the only Begotten, and many other spiritual things. It's all symbolic - that's the way the Lord often teaches us. I love it when the Lord teaches me in symbols because it gives me the opportunity to seek Him more earnestly for interpretation. It helps me become a seeker. All things testify of Christ, and all things are symbolic. You can a learn a lesson from every little thing in life. Life is surely a curriculum. But I do agree with you 100% about the part where it is the BEAST WITHIN that needs to be sacrificed.

Scriptures - well, the Lord says that they're given to us for the benefit of our instruction, learning and edification. But they do NOT come first. I never said they did. This is another area where you have misunderstood me. If the scriptures weren't important, we wouldn't have them. I, for one, am thrilled to have the journals and revelations and dealings with God of past peoples. I learn from their mistakes, learn to avoid their pitfalls, but most importantly, my faith abounds as I read about their faith and experiences. My faith in Christ expands as I read about THEIR faith in Christ, and even about the life of Christ Himself.

However, the rod of iron is most assuredly not the scriptures. Another mistake in my character that you have made is thinking that I feel the scriptures are the iron rod. Randall, I sit and listen to people preach this all the time [the the scriptures are the iron rod]. One day in Relief Society the teacher took the entire lesson time trying to convince us of this. Towards the end of class, I raised my hand  and bore witness of the truth of the matter. The scriptures are NOT the iron rod...the word of the Lord directly to us [revelation] is the iron rod. This is one of the main things I testify to people constantly.  It's my "platform" if you will. This is a truth that needs to be shouted from the rooftops. I use the scriptures to learn about the ancients and their dealings with the Lord, but I also use them for second  witnesses. I open the scriptures daily and the Lord guides me to second witnesses to the things I have already learned *directly from Him*.

Priesthood - it's God's power and authority by which all things exist, are created, governed, controlled, and by which the plan of redemption and exaltation operate. In a short sentence, the Priesthood is the POWER OF GOD. It isn't a person. It isn't a prophet. People and prophets "hold" the priesthood. Jesus Christ has bestowed an endowment of this power onto man. His power  [priesthood] is never failing, never weakening, never faltering, never even the slightest bit imperfect.  MAN IS. Sadly, MAN abuses that power - usually out of pride. OR...he doesn't use the power at all for the good of his fellow man/woman. You asked about the power of the priesthood being so easily broken when a man and woman can so easily sever a sealing. Well, like I stated before, it's the MAN AND WOMAN who have abused the power and made it null and void in their life. They don't receive the promises because they haven't been faithful and obedient to the LORD. Besides, when we're sealed, that doesn't mean that we're automatically going to be together for time and eternity. When I was sealed the officiator came right out and told us this. He said that our sealing performance was merely a "RIGHT" to be sealed If...I repeat...IF we were faithful and obedient to Jesus Christ. I have heard many other officiators say the same thing at other sealings. So, I guess that the sealings aren't really "broken" because the couple was not using the "right" properly, were they?  Remember, anybody can go get "sealed", but that sealing is not even valid until they have proven worthy and sought the Lord, and obeyed the Lord, and lived up to the covenants they have made - THEN and only THEN does the Holy Spirit of promise, through the power of the priesthood, SEAL that marriage. It isn't a man, or a temple worker, or a prophet that seals us - it's the power of God.

Lastly, you said: "Why is it that so many think that to listen to God means to listen to a church leader, guru, mystic, etc? Why is it that so many think that God will not talk to you directly, but that he has to use the corporate structure of filtering down from the top? Why do so many think that entrance to heaven is an attainment, achieved by jumping through the hoops?"

I ask myself that question all the time. I see so many church members who don't seek their own light. This is how I feel about church leaders: They are given the priesthood power on the earth, and  they are EXPECTED and COMMANDED to honor that priesthood [power of God] and to use it in the Lord's appointed way. They are "agents" for the Lord. They are His servants. They are supposed to seek the word of the Lord for the CHURCH BODY - not for people individually. It's a type of governing the church. They are to give us the general guidelines on how to run the kingdom of God here upon the earth. Some leaders are doing very well. I could name them. Others are not - I could name them, too. But that isn't my place. I'm not here to judge harshly. Just like every ship needs a captain, every organization needs a "head". The "head" of the family is the man, the head of the school is the principle, the head of the nation is the president [yuck], the head of the ship is the captain, the head of the basketball team is the coach, etc. This is just how the Lord does things. There HAS to be organization or the weak people would be running around in circles. That's the weakness of mankind,  unfortunately. But the Lord's house is a house of order. Now, granted, the church is ultimately "run" by the Lord. HE is the grand Head. But He calls men into positions of stewardship to help him. Just like He called men of old - apostles, prophets, priests, etc. HE called them...not men - back then and even now. A prophet's divine stewardship it to call people to repentance, and to invite people to come unto Christ. Apostles are much the same - they are also called to be missionaries and to teach the gospel to all the world. Do they all do their job right? Nope. There isn't a single one of us on the face of the earth that "does our job right". Some do better than others. Some slip a little.  Some slip a lot. Some fail.

Just like in days of old - in other dispensations and even other generations, there is folly in God's church. And just like in days of old, it ripened in iniquity - and that's what is going on now. But also, just like in days of old, the Lord chastized his people, and cleansed his church, and separated the  wheat from the tares. It's happening now, and it will be especially evident in the VERY near future. I can hardly wait!! But until then, I hold to the rod - the word of God to me personally. I stay within the church so that I can lead as many back to Christ as possible. I stay in the church because I have received an extremely personal UNDENIABLE AND UMISTAKABLE witness that this gospel is TRUE. I cannot deny it...I dare not deny it. All hell may break loose in the church [and it will] because of the folly of MAN...but God's power will always remain, and the church WILL be cleansed and those who are faithful and obedient to the Lord will remain, and will become the true Zion. Truth stands on its own. Truth will prevail.

You have obviously mistaken me for what you and others call "mainstream" mormons. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, I am "active" and I do "follow the prophet" in the sense that I have family prayer, scripture study, FHE, and all that stuff [and believe me, the fruits are GOOD]. But I am not one of those people that are commonly called "sheeple" amongst the anti-mormons and apostates. I seek the Lord daily for personal inspiration and guidance. I try to obey the things that  HE tells me to do. I testify of Him in all places and all times whenever the Spirit bids me to do so. You have mistaken me for a blind follower, a person who lives on borrowed light.

I find this rather amusing in light of your professed belief in seeking inspiration directly from the Lord.  Surely, in seeking, the Lord would have revealed my true character and nature to you, which would have prevented you from singling me out as one who lives by the light of another lamp.

The gospel is true no matter what...not the "church"...the gospel. But the church is supposed to be here. The Lord set it up. We've polluted it. He'll clean it. That's all there is to say.

Subject: RE: The word of God
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/16/2000 6:56 am MDT

 (quoted) I testify of Him in all places and all times whenever the Spirit bids me to do so. (end quote)

But you, yourself, have not seen the Christ yet. That is perhaps why I was sent to speak with you.

Well, we have strayed far from the original topic of the meaning of the Nauvoo temple symbolism and the inverted pentagram that occupies a position over the sun stone. It seems to be out of order, but yet it is not. All things are in perfect order. But, even in its simplicity, it is difficult for many of us to see.

As long as you find fulfillment in the (outer) house (which is symbolic of the inner house), the outer is proper and necessary for you. But, someday it will totally fail you and will, thereby, fulfill its purpose. When you reach the end of your rope, then be willing to cast off your old clothing for new ones.  When the (real) last battle of Armageddon rages in your soul and it seems that you have finally reached the end of your rope... when you have finally descended into the deepest of all despairs, then you will comprehend its purpose... that the Christ has cleaved the mount (heart), breaking it, but opening it so that it can be bound up and healed again into a new (wo)man who will realize what it means to be the only begotten. Only then will have all of the old things have passed away and things will have become (totally) new. You will then comprehend how all things are fulfilled in this generation. You will see that Christ has already come.

All this talk we do is conjecture until it is experienced. I speak to you out of experience. You will eventually find that God is much more than you could ever imagine and you will be totally delighted by it.

May you find all that you seek.

Randall

Subject: RE: The word of God
Author: a sister
Date:   11/16/2000 8:14 am MDT

Randall, you have no clue whether or not I have seen the Lord or not. It's not something I would share with just anybody. I have received no witness that you were sent to speak with me.

The only witness that I have received is that I am to close my testimonies with you and not continue on. My words have fallen upon deaf ears, for you have unwavering conviction in the things you believe in. I believe all that you say about cleansing the inner vessel, for I share that testimony with you. But I also have a testimony that the things spoken of in the scriptures [The mount being torn in half, the church being cleansed, the battle of Armageddon, etc.] will all find literal, physical OUTER fulfillment.  They are all symbolic of the inner battles and the inner changes. The Lord teaches us that there is a physical and spiritual side to everything. So, these things HAVE to be. But they will happen, that is for certain. And I also know that Jesus Christ will appear to the entire world - some will be thrilled to greet him and others will wish they could die on the spot. But every knee shall one day bow and every tongue confess. I know you don't believe the things I just said, and that's your privilege. Time will tell, though. God bless....

Subject: RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/17/2000 3:14 am MDT

 (quoted) The only witness that I have received is that I am to close my testimonies with you and not continue on. (end quote)

Well, maybe what has been spoken here is not for you or I, but for the benefit of someone else who  is reading, since we don't seem to be speaking the same language.

Perhaps it has again taken us back to the topic of this thread: What does it mean by the the inverted pentagram (lucifer star) decorating the temple?

At risk of further offending folks, may I suggest that perhaps a part of recognizing the Christ is recognizing Lucifer? Perhaps Lucifer is not as fearful as he is made out to be (once one sees who he is)? Perhaps he is a man without glory? Perhaps the glory that many think belongs to Lucifer is what belongs to God?

Well, maybe this doesn't make a lot of sense yet.

Try to consider this:    In the LDS endowment, Lucifer identifies himself to Eve as her "brother" and, at one point, tells Adam and Eve to "Quick!... hide!... make yourself aprons!" At this point, there is a pause in the ceremony and there is a replay of the exact same thing.... a voice (the narrator) comes over the loudspeaker and says to the temple patrons: "Brothers and Sisters, put on your aprons."   Question: Who tells the patrons exactly the same thing what Lucifer tells Adam and Eve? Who is it who is narrating the endowment? Who is it who is speaking to the temple patrons?

In the pre-1990 endowment, there is a drama played out by Lucifer, Adam and Even, a hired minister, and Peter, James and John. At one point, Peter points to Lucifer and asks the minister if he knows that he is Satan. The minister responds in complete surprise and remarks: "Whaaaat? The devil?... He said the devil has claws like a bear's on his hands, horns on his head, and a cloven foot, and that when he speaks he has the roar of a lion!" Peter responds: "He has said this to deceive you." It seems that the minister is confused by what Lucifer tells him about Lucifer.  This is a very simple drama still being played out in the present moment.  One just needs to ask who the role-players are.

An important question to consider:   Where does it say that Lucifer (a fallen man from Heaven) does not have a physical body?   Is it stated clearly and emphatically in the scriptures (as opposed to being  taught by ministers)? Just maybe the endowment has a profound and plain message here (one of many) that is so profound that it is "hidden in plain sight"? Moreover, might I suggest that Lucifer, himself, has taught this untruth that "Satan does not have a body"?

One might also consider the symbolism in creation. Notice the polar star (Polaris in the North), which represents the Lucifer-star, and the creation that surrounds it.  Notice that there is an "appearance" of it being the center-star in the heavens (other stars appear to revolve around it). But, it is a relatively dim star among all of the stars and the turning of the earth creates this illusion of it being important. One thing also to notice is the symbolism of those in the Telestial world being  (metaphorically) as the "stars of the heavens." The stars of heaven (the suns/sons of God) come into mortality and receive physical bodies. Also, notice that Moses recognized Lucifer by his lack of glory (per what is in the PoGP). Of course, many worship Lucifer because they think he has great glory (intelligence) and Lucifer gets real mad at Moses when Moses does not give him (Lucifer) the proper fealty/recognition.

There is much, much, more, but perhaps this will suffice for now. What I am suggesting with this (already lengthy) dissertation is that perhaps we ought to consider what many have not considered yet. Maybe this teaching that "Satan has no (physical) body" is the same as the teaching that the devil has "claws of a bear" (per the endowment story)? Perhaps this is also taught by Lucifer himself? Maybe Lucifer is a (mortal) man without glory who is worshiped as a God? Well, if not worshipped, then at least proclaimed far and wide as "the Lord's chosen leader"? And indeed he is. I am not being flippant with the previous sentence. Lucifer is indeed chosen and anointed.

Who is this man?

Well, he is standing right behind you.

He is the star of the temple.

It may not make much sense the first time one hears what I have just said, but in the end, perhaps it will make perfect sense. So much sense, in fact, that I stand amazed at the glory (intelligence) of God and the perfect order of the creation that surrounds us.

Maybe I am alone in seeing this. And maybe I am to be considered insane and should be censored as some think. But, perhaps one ought to take a look and consider some things that one may have never considered ... to search deeply and ponder long without taking offense to see if there might be some truth in it too. I offer it for anyone that may be helped along their way.

Randall  

In the previous message, when speaking of Lucifer, I am speaking metaphorically. The one (and many) being referred to is not the real personage of Lucifer. Maybe it could be confusing if taken wrong. Whenever a "Lucifer" passes away (only God is unchangable), another will rise to take his  place.

Endowment patrons:   notice that the (pre 1990) endowment that the minister responds to Peter's inquiry whether he knows who he follows: "Whaaat... the devil?" Peter replies "That is one of his names."

Lucifer is a archetypical name. The devil goes by "the name of a man." And it is one of many names  (per Peter's response). Some names are Hinckley, Graham, Roberson, John Paul, the (self-proclaimed) One Mighty and Strong, etc., etc. These are some of his names. It is anyone who says or implies by so-many-words that they are the ones who will lead you right (as opposed to one who says "I of myself can do nothing... it is the Father who doeth" or "Go yourself to God and follow only Him.")

Whenever one hears another proclaiming themself to be the one mighty and strong, you can be sure of one thing: They are not, having misunderstood the meaning.  Such a person will sometimes have ministers proclaiming his message. Look carefully at the endowment. It is all played out there in plainness.

The great ironies of ironies is that man will deny what is right in front of him.

Randall  

The scriptures teach us that Lucifer was in the pre-existence, got 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to follow him, and then they were cast down out of heaven. So, Lucifer is very real. This doesn't jive with what you're saying. Your theory contradicts the scriptures. If "Lucifer" is many people, then who is the ONE Lucifer that was cast down out of heaven followed by his minions? Lucifer has many names, to be sure. But they are man-given. They are names that describe him, more than anything - names that label him a deceiver, a murderer, a wicked one, etc. I can name him many things, and I've done it. I've called him a jerk, a heathen, and many other things in my mind. That doesn't mean he's many people. I, myself, have a given name, but I am called many things - nick names, my own named shortened, etc. My husband calls me "honey", and "sweetheart", and other names. That doesn't mean I'm more than one person.

I believe that when a person asks us to "follow" him, like the "one might and strong" for instance, that they are trying to be a power unto themselves. But they are NOT Lucifer. They may be one of his servants however.

As far as the prophet goes, he's not telling us that HE is the one with the power. He comes right out and tells us that we should follow JESUS. He openly teaches that he is a SERVANT of the Lord, and  a SPOKESMAN of the Lord, just like all of the past and ancient prophets. To imply anything else is ridiculous and sinful.
 

Subject: RE: postscript RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/17/2000 12:34 am MDT

 (quoted) If "Lucifer" is many people, then who is the ONE Lucifer that was cast down out of heaven followed by his minions? (end quote)

Well, perhaps one can see "Lucifer" is a metaphor and an archetype as well as a real (individual) being? Take a close look at Matthew Chapter 23. It is where Jesus chastizes the brethern of his day (Pharisees) for being unGodly. At one point, he (Jesus) tells them that "the devil is their father." In the first verse, he (Jesus) acknowledges that they (Pharisees) "sit in Moses seat."   Do you think that the Lord was calling their genealogies (which the Pharisees could trace right back to Israel) into question? Or was he suggesting that one is the "seed" of who they list to obey? Read the entire chapter very carefully, especially since the words are as true at the present time as during Jesus's ministry.

 If one acts out the role of someone else, but really it is not acting at all... instead it is the very living of it, then has not that person become the other, in the symbolic sense?

Try to get out of the literal mind. It may help to take a look at the essay on my website called "Carnal and Spiritual Understandings" to understand what I am talking about. You don't have to agree of course, but you might want to look.

 (quoted) "As far as the prophet goes, he's not telling us that HE is the one with the power." (end quote)

Power and authority are often used as synonymous terms in mormonism, so, change the word "power" with "authority" in your sentence above. Then think of the temple recommend questions.

Randall  

Subject: RE: postscript RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowmen
Author: a sister
Date:   11/17/2000 12:49 am MDT

Yes, I agree that those who act out things that Lucifer would have them do, are indeed "like unto" the real person, of course in a symbolic sense. But I still believe that there is a real satan. Your original post came across to me as saying that lucifer is not real.

Power and authority - being synonymous. Well, with 'blind follower' LDS, I agree. They are the one who think the prophet and the apostles, leaders, etc., as being infallible. Then there are those of us,  like me, who see the weakness in the brethren, but do not condemn them for it [for the Lord forbids us to condemn others - "whoso is angry with his brother..."]. Apostates and anti-mormons see weakness, then exaggerate, and then belittle and hate the brethren as a result.

Authority - I consider this not so much "having power over me"...but merely the power or authority to act as the Lord's AGENTS here on the earth. You know as well as I do that the Lord uses earthly servants to preach His word and lead people back to Him. If you claim you don't know this, then your website is useless - for you claim to be trying to lead people back to truth - to Christ.

Therefore, I consider the leaders to be men who are called - JUST AS JESUS CALLED HIS OWN APOSTLES - to preach and teach the word, and lead people back to Christ. Those who abuse their power [and some do] will be held accountable. Those who use this "authority" wisely and with meekness and humility, will be blessed [and there are several leaders who are very righteous]. LDS who follow blindly without the Spirit [living on borrowed light], will not only be held accountable, but they will FALL.

When I answer my temple recommend questions, I answer honestly that I believe that the prophet holds the "keys" [power or authority] to lead and guide the CHURCH [not me as an individual] back to Christ, by teaching the BASICS of the gospel [faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost].   The Lord will teach each and every one of us all truths, through the Holy Ghost. I am not saying, in my interview, that I believe that the prophet is my all-wise holy leader, that I put in place of the Lord.  He is just the one that holds the keys. When Christ was on the earth, he passed this responsibility onto his disciples and apostles - to preach the word to all the ends of the earth.

Subject: RE: postscript RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/18/2000 9:35 am MDT

(end quote) Authority - I consider this not so much "having power over me"...but merely the power or authority to act as the Lord's AGENTS here on the earth. (end quote)

Since you use 'power or authority' as a phrase in the second sentence, I am presuming that your words "power over me" are also synonymous with the phrase "authority over me".

Well, I agree, but I am wondering why you would say such a thing, but then turn around and contradict it by saying that there is only one man with authority (over everyone)? What you are saying appears to be speaking with the proverbial forked tongue. That is, if he ("the prophet") does not have authority over you, then why would he have authority over anyone else, but himself? If he has authority over only himself (which is the true meaning of it), then why is it that the church imposes a penalty of excommunication for not giving the leader the proper fealty in this authority thing?

This gets us back to previously-made remarks regarding the authority structure in the heavens. Is it a pyramidal structure with one man over another? Or is it rather only God is the head of every man? I think it is the latter. The former is a spiritual caste system like is found in India. It demeans man rather than elevates him. When Jesus's disciples wanted to be ranked next to him in authority, he explained that "the least is the greatest". These remarks were perhaps all about authority structure.

This is also all about the story of the kingmen vs the freemen in the BoM. Why do folks desire a  (so-called) king to be between them and God? Mormons make this into an art-form. But, so do catholics and many other corporations who do business as churches.

At the risk of being repetitive, I will say that perhaps it is supposed to be this way. It is the preparatory gospel. Yes, the preparatory gospel is true also.  But, when mormons "testify" that they "know the gospel is true", what do they really mean? I don't think that they mean to say that "this church is the preparatory church", but rather that this church is required for salvation for everyone.

Randall 

Subject: maybe Lucifer is a brother
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/18/2000 10:01 am MDT

(quote about Lucifer) I've called him a jerk, a heathen, and many other things in my mind. (end quote)

There is an interesting exchange in the creation parable (told in the endowment) where Eve asks Lucifer who he is. Lucifer replies that he is her "brother", to which Eve retorts "You my brother!?... and come to persuade me to disobey Father?"

Maybe there is a lot of profound things to see about ourselves in this exchange. Maybe we ought to  think on it a long time and then take a close look at ourselves. Are we not to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve?

Eve, of course, is in a naive state of being and can't see who Lucifer is, so she must ask him.

Do we know who is our brother? Did the Samaritan in the parable of Jesus know who was his brother? Didn't Jesus say to love unconditionally and to forgive all men? Isn't the story of the "Tribes of Israel" a story of becoming lost because they were no longer brothers (ie. they began to separate into "tribes")?

Maybe when Eve returns as a much progressed individual and can see things as they are, she will then turn to Lucifer and remark very wisely: "Yes, I see now, you are truly my brother."

Just offering some things to think about.

Randall  

Subject: RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: a sister
Date:   11/17/2000 9:11 am MDT

If lucifer and his minions have bodies, then when are they always trying to posses ours, and even the bodies of swine?

And who are you referring to as being the "star of the temple"? Could you please be more clear? Are you saying that the prophet is lucifer? Just curious.

Subject: RE: back to swine and temples
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/18/2000 10:29 am MDT

 (replying to this) If lucifer and his minions have bodies, then when are they always trying to posses ours, and even the bodies of swine? (end quote)

Well, there is something very profound in your question and perhaps we can find an answer when we understand what was symbolized by the story/parable of Jesus and the swine. Notice that we are spirits that come down to get bodies, then return to the spirit world without (mortal) bodies. Now think on this very carefully. In doing so, recall that "swine" is a word that you brought up a few messages ago, but used it as a metaphor for carnal man. Search deeply within your own soul and ask why it is that you, yourself, think that this physical body is so important to you. Perhaps in taking the body to be a thing of desire, we run hard for the cliff.

(quote) And who are you referring to as being the "star of the temple"? Could you be more clear?  (end quote)

Speaking in the spiritual vernacular, the star of the temple is the one who has taken charge of it.

Regarding clarity, I am trying to be as clear as possible, yet I understand what you ask. If I state things a different way, they may even be more confusing. Spoken language is inherently an imperfect method of communication and often communicates what is not desired. It is corrupt by its very nature. Unfortunately, most folks are very unpracticed at speaking what mormons call Adamic. So, I am apologizing, but yet acknowledging that this is the forum we are operating in.

There is an irony here too. That when each of us begins to drink of the water our self, then the communication becomes clearer. It cannot happen the other way around, because then the purpose of it would not come to fulfillment. The purpose of it is often a touch of frustration. The fulfillment is drinking deeply from the water.

Randall  

Subject: RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: a sister
Date:   11/17/2000 10:04 am MDT

 You said: "Perhaps it has again taken us back to the topic of this thread: What does it mean by the inverted pentagram (lucifer star) decorating the temple?"

Remember, Randall, symbolism is a choice. YOU choose to see it as a "lucifer star" but I choose to see it as the symbol of venus, morning star - Jesus Christ. All the people who focus upon weakness  in the church will see it as you see it. But it was put there to symbolize CHRIST. It is the heart of the *creator* of the window that will be looked upon, as well as the hearts of those who see it for what it is. Those who see it for what it isn't, and make it out for what they want it to be - and do so INCORRECTLY, will be accountable.

I could paint my home red, and do it for the purpose of symbolizing being cleansed by the [red] blood of Christ. Somebody looking for fault could walk by and say, "Look, those people painted their house red - the color of the devil. They must be devil worshippers."

You said: "Where does it say that Lucifer (a fallen man from Heaven) does not have a physical body?  Is it stated clearly and emphatically in the scriptures (as opposed to being taught by ministers)?"

Well, one place that it is teaching this principle is in D&C 131. This scripture teaches us how to discern an angel of light with a body, an angel of light without a body [ministering spirit] or satan himself. The angel with a body will shake our hand and we will feel it. The angel without a body will not shake our hand, for they are forbidden to try and deceive [we would not feel their hand]. Satan, on the other hand, will offer us our hand to TRY and deceive us and we will NOT feel his hand. Why won't we feel his hand? Because he doesn't have a physical body! He'll try and trick us into thinking he does, but we won't feel his hand, and we can thereby detect him.

Again, I ask you, why is it that there are so many instances in the scriptures where satan and his minions are trying to inhabit [and do inhabit] the bodies of others, including the swine, if they already  have bodies? Why do they BEG the Lord to allow them to take the bodies of the swine? Why does the Lord teach his apostles how to cast the SPIRITS out of the bodies of people who have been POSSESSED? How could so many UNCLEAN SPIRITS inhabit one body at one time? I cannot fathom, nor is it even possible, how a bunch of *real* bodies could jump into the body of another person. Logic tells us that this is impossible. I can't jump into another person's body any more than anybody else could.

Your "speaking metaphorically" can make sense in one way - in that we are FOLLOWING satan and thus become his *servants* when we try to bring glory and power to ourselves. But we are NOT satan! Satan is himself, and those who follow him are themselves, too. Satan and the 1/3 who followed him do NOT have bodies, and they never will. Sorry Randall, but I believe in the Lord's words through His prophets - both ancient and modern. But that was only my second witness. My first witness came from the Lord himself through the Spirit. So that is that.

Subject: RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/17/2000 12:03 am MDT

 (quoted) I choose to see it as the symbol of venus, morning star - Jesus Christ. (end quote)

Venus is referred to as the morning and evening star because of its proximity to the sun, it is seen in the sky at both dawn and dusk. Incidentally, there is an interesting scriptural passage (metaphorical) about those who will "look upon" Lucifer (venus) "narrowly" ... it never rises to the zenith as does the sun does at noonday, so one looks "narrowly" at the horizon. I went to my library shelf of rare masonic books and looked up the pentagram. Manley P. Hall's "Secret Teachings of the Ages" has a very long dissertation on it. I will only quote a relevant sentence for brevity:

"In symbolism, the inverted figure (pentagram) always signifies perverted power". (from page CIV)

No need to panic. It is there for a purpose. Still your outward mind and begin to ask what it is and ultimately it will become very clear. It is a bit like one of those 3-D pictures. One who sees it can explain it till the proverbial cows come home, but each person really needs to experience it them self to comprehend what all the talk cannot capture. It is there for the asking.

 (quoted) "Well, one place that it is teaching this principle is in D&C 131. This scripture teaches us how to discern an angel of light with a body, an angel of light without a body [ministering spirit] or satan himself." (end quote)

Well, I find that those people who quote D&C 131 in this context have little or no experience themselves with it. When you have a mavlevoent being from the other side of the veil put his hands around your neck and try to choke you, then you begin to question whether D&C 131 can be taken literally. I've experienced it, but I am guessing that you have not yet. As to the meaning of D&C 131, in its literal form, it is a bit foolish. Like to think that an evil spirit is not savvy enough to withhold his  hand. Perhaps it will help to notice that the endowment is all about this handshaking (tokens). In one sense, the handclasps (endowment tokens) represent fellowship (with God)... full handclasp is full fellowship... partial handclasps symbolize partial fellowship. So, these tokens are not about literal shaking hands after all, but are a thing of the soul. See? What you are not to revealed (partial fellowship) is what carnal man always ends up revealing because he can't help it. As a result, he pays with his life (all in the present) and is spiritually dead. The first two tokens of partial fellowship are named with our own names. But, they might was well be "pride" and "vanity". Feeling (the discernment type) is also a thing of the (metaphoric) head, heart, and bowels in its highest form.  Think on this a while, as it is very profound, yet profoundly simple.

Hope that helps. All of this talk is a bit like the Texas riddle asking "how many times an Aggie laughs at a joke?" The answer: Three. The first time when he hears it, the second when it is  explained to him, and the third when he gets it. The best that one man can do for another is the first two. Consider the task of Jesus teaching his disciples. In the end, each person must stoop down and drink of the water by himself.

Randall  

Subject: RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment

Author: a sister
Date:   11/17/2000 12:59 am MDT
You said: "In symbolism, the inverted figure (pentagram) always signifies perverted power". (from page CIV)

1. As I stated several times before, symbolism is a choice and is in the eye of the beholder. The author of the above statement sees the inverted figure as "always" signifying perverted power. For one thing, the author is a man. I choose not to lean upon his flesh. For another thing, whoever made the "rules" about what symbolism means on any particular thing? MANKIND did. That includes this inverted star. Therefore, I choose to see the star for what I want to see it as - and as the creators of  the window see it as. I assure you they are not putting up a sign of the devil. The only other creator of symbolism is Christ. So, there you have it...men's interpretations and Christ's. Seems to me that the author above is a man - I go to Christ first.

You said: "No need to panic. It is there for a purpose."

Believe me, I am not even remotely close to panicking. If I were to panic over the words of man, then  I'd surely be in a sorry state. And you're right, it is there for a purpose. A good purpose.

Subject: RE: Who is Lucifer and the endowment
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/18/2000 9:47 am MDT

(begin quote) Therefore, I choose to see the star for what I want to see it as (end quote)

Indeed. Your whole paragraph is loaded with deep and profound symbolism. All creation that is about you symbolizes what is happening.

(quoted) Believe me, I am not even remotely close to panicking. (end quote)

Choose to see as you wish and then make a case about it, but I feel great fear coming through your words in the messages over the past week.

If one is truly unafraid, why would they have any type of need to say so? Please take a long time to think on this.

Randall  

Subject: Coming to the Veil
Author: Shinehah2 of Laneshine
Date:   11/18/2000 1:09 pm MDT

Dear eleazar --

Always edified by your insights. Your discussion on the prepatory gospel is very helpful. You remind us of the wise counsel so often given by Elder JFWirthlin and other apostles to church leaders around the world. Elder JFW  urges us NOT to put any man between an investigator (candidate for celestial glory) and the Lord.

As Elder JFW puts it, "We are to invite all to come unto Christ -- not to come unto the Bishop, or unto the Stake President, or even to the prophet.   Our invitation is to come unto Christ and be perfected in him, the same way he was perfected by doing the will of his Father. What manner of men ought we to be? Even as I am, said the resurrected Jesus after he fulfilled the will of his Father who sent him."

"At this gate," said Elder Wirthlin, "the Lord employeth no servant."

2 Nephi 9:40
40 O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of  the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all   uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

2 Nephi 9:42
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

2 Nephi 9:43
43 But the things of the wise and the prudent shall be hid from them forever -- yea, that happiness which is prepared for the saints.

- - - - - - - -

The prophet GBH tells us the same thing. Those of us who live in Olaha  Shinehah2 have often heard him say, "Our task is prepartory in nature. We are the veil workers who bring candidates for celestial glory to the veil.  You might say we introduce them at the veil, after they have proven their faithfulness in all things. But then, we must step aside. We must not put another man between the investigator and the Lord. He employeth no servant there."

- - - - - - - -

You are right, eleazar. The corporate church is preparatory. No one knows that better than the Board of Trustees who preside over this School of Higher Education. The Trustee in Trust holds all the keys of this authority, because there is only one man on earth at a time with all the keys.

But this Trustee also knows -- and often says -- his keys give him no authority to stand between the Lord and those who are coming unto Christ. At that gate he employeth no servant. The keys of authority are, quite simply, the keys to the correct translation of the divine drama -- written by the heavenly author. In the life of the prophet are all the keys to the correct translation of the mysteries -- as he lives them. His life is the correct translation. He is fulfilling the messianic prophecies in which his new name is written -- sustained by special witnesses who behold the true translation of the very prophecies and mysteries the prophet is fulfilling.

The prophet seeks no dominion over anyone -- and instructs the Brethren to follow his example. He tells us to place no one between an earnest seeker and the Lord at the veil. Our task is preparatory. We are the veil workers who bring a candidate to this point -- and no further. We introduce at the veil. Each person is then free to find out for themselves what reward (message from on High) the Lord has for them -- according as their work shall  be. The gift of the new name -- that no one else knows -- signifies their new mission that no one else knows -- as surely as Abram and Sarai received  their new name at the dreadful place later called by Jacob -- Beth El.

So it is with us -- shortly afterwhich Lucifer, our common enemy, is allowed to test and torment us.

Simply put, there is no "power over me." That was Lucifer's definition of authority. The scepter held by the prophet is the same one spoken of in D&C 121. It is the same scepter of righteousness and held by all the kings and priests, queens and priestesses who live in the Kingdom of kings and queens.

D&C 121:45
45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of  the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

D&C 121:46
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Those who seek another dominion within the church -- who lord it over others, so to speak, have fallen for the lie that Lucifer told long ago -- back when Eve's eyes were opened to the way life was in the old world, where we used to live. We are now on another journey to the new world -- even to the Celestial Kingdom of Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses of equal power, dominion and authority. This is the journey for which the Preparatory Gospel of the corporate church has prepared us. As we graduate, let us sing the alma mater song with reverence, and not speak evil of the school master who brought us unto the anointing experience.

- - - - - - - -

D&C 76:94
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

D&C 76:96
96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.

- - - - - - - - -

The Celestial Kingdom of Equality Among All

D&C 70:14

14 Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be withheld.

D&C 70:15
15 Now, this commandment I give unto my servants for their benefit while they remain, for a manifestation of my blessings upon their heads, and for a reward of their diligence and for their security;

 - - - - - - - - -

D&C 78:3
3 For verily I say unto you, the time has come, and is now at hand; and behold, and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people, in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion--

4 For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church, to advance the cause, which ye have espoused, to the salvation of man, and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven;

D&C 78:5
5 That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.

6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;

7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.

D&C 78:8
8 And now, verily thus saith the Lord, it is expedient that all things be done unto my glory, by you who are joined together in this order . . . the United Order of Enoch

- - - - - - - -

D&C 82:16
16 Behold, here is wisdom also in me for your good.

 17 And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just--

18 And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord's storehouse, to become the common property of the whole church--

D&C 82:19
19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

- - - - - - - - -

D&C 88:106
106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel (who opens the 7th seal), saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

D&C 88:107
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

- - - - - - - - -

This is the equality of the 7th seal -- among all members in the Church of the Firstborn. The preparatory gospel of the corporate church is the school master that brings us to this equality. The Trustee in Trust who presides among the Board of Equals at this School of Higher Education understands this principle better than most of us. To him these equals have given their keys   . . . even as the sons of Adam returned their keys to their Father when the Family gathered for a family reunion at AOA in the days of Enoch.

D&C 107:23
23 The twelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world--thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

D&C 107:24
24 And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world -- thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.

D&C 107:27
27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other --

Or so it seems to some of us living in the land of Olaha Shinehah2

>From your undeviating friend and fellow-servant,

darak

- - - - - - -

Subject: RE: Coming to the Veil
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/19/2000 6:15 am MDT

I think you speak rightly.

Your words helped me to place something in order that I did not see before. It was your mention of Abram and Sarai, their new names, and the comment about Lucifer as "our common enemy."

 One might wonder why God refers to Lucifer as "our common enemy" in the very early portions of the creation parable? Inasmuch as God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, then how can there exist an enemy, especially since the word enemy means both "threat" and "fear"? How can an all powerful being be threatened by anything? How can what is all-faithful be fearful?

The answer is not. So, maybe "enemy" is a word that pertains to Abram and Sarai in the reference to "our". The story of Abraham is a story of (the progression of) each of us. When Abraham made his acceptable sacrifice, he finally understood what was meant to "slay thy son" (his own most important creation) and thereby killed on the altar the enemy that was within (his carnal way of thinking -- represented by the ram stuck in the thicket by his horns of so-called power).

Ultimately, carnal man will find that the enemy exists within and that all of the scriptural passages pertain to him as an individualized presence (a Son of God).

Best of luck in your journey.

Randall

Subject: RE: May your words be true
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/19/2000 2:23 pm MDT

Shinehah2 of Laneshine,

Since I read your message this morning, it has weighed upon my mind that I replied in haste, and in doing so, said little of real importance. I feel moved to say a few words further.

There is a part of me that wishes your words to be true in every way. Of course, the Laneshine group and I have gone back and forth on this over the past few years to little or no convincing of the other regarding the spiritual advancement or, alternatively, the spiritual bankruptcy of those occupy the high seats in mormondom. I think that this inner hope of mine that you are right is shared by all who are truly honest with themselves.

Yet, perhaps it doesn't really matter whether you or I are right? On one hand, if the high leaders are priestcrafters as the creation around us seems to testify, then we are in error to elevate them above us. On the other hand, if the high leaders have truly come to know the love of God, then they will not require or accept our raising of them above anyone else. Either way, it is the same.

Despite our differences, may we treat all men as equals, no matter their condition at the present moment. May we never accept the furthering of a spiritual caste system where there is the lifting of one man above another. May we see all men as they will be.

Best of luck in your journey.

Randall 

Subject: Then and now
Author: Randall 
Date:   11/20/2000 9:54 am MDT

In considering the meaning of symbolism and the temple (eg. the inverted star on the Nauvoo  structure), one might also want to consider what happened to the Nauvoo temple. Going further, one might also want to consider the current temples and what is symbolized by/in them.

All things are symbolized in the creation that surrounds us.

Notice that the Nauvoo temple was designed for one thing (the Kirtland endowment), but was used for another (the Nauvoo/masonic endowment). History shows the Nauvoo temple was abandoned, taken over by troops, burned (leaving only the stones), then toppled to the ground by a whirlwind.  Notice how this works into the scriptural metaphor of the polluted temple and its destruction. Notice details too, such as what became of the sun, moon, stones. There are intact sun stones, some broken moon stones, but not even recognizable remnants of (inverted) star stones. Notice the metaphor of the unchanging God (sun), the broken savior (moon) and the complete destruction of the perversion (inverted star) that usurped the position belonging to the sun.

One might also want to notice what is happening with temples now. In the early days of mormonism, grand structures were built at great sacrifice by a poor (speaking of material wealth) people. These structures were built from natural stone and had many floors (floors indicated different levels of   understandings/progression).   Today, a rich (materially wealthy, but spiritually bankrupt) church builds dinky structures with essentially a single floor. As man "finds himself" in the material world, he becomes lost to the spiritual. The single floor indicates a collapse of the higher teachings and a loss of them, so there is no (symbolic) progression above the level of the earth (ground).

There is a great effort made by patrons to do the work for the dead, all the while oblivious to the metaphor that the patrons themselves are among the (spiritually) dead. The dead always do the work for the dead.

Notice how the rebuilding of the Nauvoo temple (today) and how it is being made of concrete  (man-made stone) with a facade of natural stone to give it a image. Also, that the inside  (rooms/floorplan) of the Nauvoo temple is very different than what is indicated on the outside (that the temple is being built the same as the former structure).

Yet, it all has a great purpose because some will look behind the facade and see the essence. Then it will all have worked its magic. One who understands it will never have a need to attend the temple again. He will know that he (the true temple), himself, is what it is all about.

Randall  

Subject: RE: Then and now

Author: a sister
Date:   11/20/2000 12:03 am MST

Randall, I am curious as to what you mean by the following comment:

"There is a great effort made by patrons to do the work for the dead, all the while oblivious to the metaphor that the patrons themselves are among the (spiritually) dead. The dead always do the work for the dead."

Thanks, Randall. By the way, you mentioned that you felt great fear coming from my posts. As we both have mentioned, it is hard to get feelings across on an internet screen. I truly am not afraid. I agree with you on more things than you realize. But on some things we differ. It's been an interesting discussion. Did you get the email I sent a few days ago?

~a sister.

Subject: RE: Then and now
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/21/2000 7:42 am MST

(quote) I am curious as to what you mean by the following comment: "There is a great effort made by patrons to do the work for the dead, all the while oblivious to the metaphor that the patrons themselves are among the (spiritually) dead. The dead always do the work for the dead." (end quote)

Well, I will try my best. It is like one of those hidden pictures. Difficult to see at first... but once it is seen, one wonders how it was missed. The temple endowment has a purpose which is to teach carnal man what he does not know. There is no use for someone to keep going through the endowment if one knows what it is about. Once it has fulfilled its purpose, then it will no longer be needed. Remember that John saw in his vison of the New Jerusalem that there "was no temple therein" but that the Lord was the temple of it.

The people going through the endowment are the real benefactors as well as those who are same  (benefit by its teachings) on the other side of the veil. The phrase "rebuilding of the temple" is what it is all about. But, the temple that really matters: the one built without hands, is the one that it is all about. Not some building (built with hands) and its instructions to man. It is all about you, who are the true temple of God.

I noticed that Nick Literski had a quote from the scripts on his website regarding the rebuilding of the (Nauvoo) temple. Here it is:

". . . and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the Lord of hosts. The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts." (Haggai 2:7-9)

See? It is all about us. Carnal man, who stands as a polluted temple, is to be cleansed and rebuilt, becoming greater than the former. When the Lord "comes quickly to his Temple", he speaks of coming to you. It happens now, in this (the present) generation because he already stands at the door (of the temple) and knocks. Unfortunately, carnal man cannot hear until he quiets his outward mind and then can hear through the noise (that he, himself, has created). Search for the (hidden) door of the temple and you will have found what so many spend their lives searching for.

These things have been symbolized in all temples, even the great one at Egypt called the Great Pyramid. Look at its history and what it is about. Some folks think it was filled with treasure, but when it was opened (after being sealed up), they found only dust inside. But, the real treasure is still there because they missed it. In the pyramid, those who look for material treasure will find dust, which is what material riches are. The real treasure is in its (hidden) symbolism. There is a brief essay on the pyramid and its meaning on my website, if you are interested.

The folks who built the (outer) pyramid (in the midst of Egypt) didn't know what it was about and that it was for them. It is the same with those who build the pyramids today. Brigham didn't know what the endowment was about, nor what polygamy was about, nor blood atonement, nor Adam-God, etc., etc. Like the fallen Israelites erroneously took the command to sacrifice the beast (within) to literally mean to kill their innocent animals, Brigham took these things literally and the preparatory gospel rose again. That is why Brigham became a murderer of Joseph Smith, although he did not pull the trigger, he knew who killed the Smith brothers, protected them, then turned around and murdered Joseph Smiths character by pinning polygamy on him after he was dead and could no longer defend himself. Did God speak to Brigham? Of course. Notice that God spoke to Cain after he slew Able. Brigham didn't understand any more than Able did. The problem with carnal man is that he doesn't understand what it is about. The fall of Adam is all about mis-understanding, not obeying orders.

Well, I will stop with that to keep this as brief as possible. Hope that lengthy dissertation helps.

Randall  

(quote) By the way, you mentioned that you felt great fear coming from my posts. As we both have mentioned, it is hard to get feelings across on an internet screen. I truly am not afraid. I agree with you on more things than you realize. But on some things we differ. It's been an interesting discussion. Did you get the email I sent a few days ago? (end quote)

It is ok if we disagree on some points. This is merely a discussion, right?

Well, maybe my comment about fear can be seen by looking at the first message on this thread to which I replied (called "Be wise and careful with this thread"). The message of that particular post is to be careful with what one says because the words might cause someone to fall (ie. "lose their testimony"). The fear is that someone will fall away because they are not able (prepared) to receive these things.

Ok. But, look at what Nephi says about this very thing:  2 Nephi 28:28 "... he that is built upon the rock (of Christ) receiveth it (all things) with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall (ie. shall lose his testimony?)."  My comments in parentheses.

Now, one might ask why one is afraid? It is perhaps a question that each must ask of themself. We must all look within ourselves and find all places where there is fear. Then ask why it is there.

Regarding emails, I got three private messages yesterday about the Temple of God website.  I answered all. Did you get a reply? But, maybe it came after I left work early. A heavy snowstorm has closed down the city of Buffalo and so today I am at home.

Hope to stay at home. (c:

But, maybe where ever I go will be my home. (c:

Randall  

I guess what I mean about the "fear" thing in my first post is that even our Heavenly Father doesn't give us things that we aren't ready for. He teaches us "line upon line and precept upon precept". So I was just concerned that people might be getting some meat [true or false] that they weren't prepared for, and they would choke to death on it. Many people in the church are still drinking skim milk. I wouldn't want the Lord to teach me something unless I was ready for it. That way I could truly understand it, embrace it, and enjoy it. He knows just exactly what I can handle. I try to be very in tune with the Spirit and to be obedient, so that I can receive as much as possible. I want to more forward at all times and never sit on a fence [even though sitting on a fence is really moving backwards]. I find that the more I learn about the 'mysteries of Godliness'...the simpler the gospel becomes. I am curious as to why you think it is necessary to leave the church, though. Even though I know that all is not well in Zion, I still feel it is the right thing to do to remain in the church and to try to help teach truth to the people and to lead them to the well of Living Waters. I find that people won't listen if you're "outside" of the church - they call you apostate and their ears are closed.

~ a sister

Subject: RE: Then and now
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/22/2000 11:28 am MST

God always says "ask of me and ye shall receive".

How does one know when a person is ready for knowledge?

Ans: As soon as he asks the question.

Go at the top of this board and notice the first few posts on this thread. God never tells people to "don't ask" in regard to receiving knowledge or wisdom. The injunction to "ask not what ye ought not" refers to supplication for material goods or things to fill ones lusts (eg. vanity).

I find that it is carnal men who say "don't ask" in regard to the seeking of knowledge and wisdom. It often has to do with self-interest.

I have appended (below) some quotations from the "Sayings of Po-Tai" that are relevant to this conversation. Maybe they will help.

Randall

 "How does one know when someone is ready for a higher truth? As soon as they ask the question. When the question is asked with pure intention, then that person is ready to receive the answer."

"A great teacher will always try to make the student greater than himself. He rejoices in it. Some who would be teachers will try to keep the student below himself in order to live off his adoration, attention, and perhaps his purse. These latter ones are not teachers at all, but devils. Like animals, they live off the flesh of others. Their lusts bind themselves and those who are seeking. They take advantage of another's hunger to feed their own appetites. A teacher should tame his own appetites, then he can help others."

"In reality, it is easy to discern a true teacher from a false one. A true teacher will love you and have your interests at heart. He will seek to make you better than himself, often at great personal sacrifice. He will often put your needs above his own. That is why Jesus always taught others to become like he is in every way and said that those who follow him (do as he) will do greater works than he did. A false teacher will fain to have your interests in mind, but it will not be so. Rather, it is his own interests that he has in mind and he will seek to keep you in subjugation to him. He will try to make you dependent on him and try to convince you that your very existence depends on this hierarchal relationship. The former bring life, the latter damnation. "

"A great teacher will not always give the answers to questions. Rather, such a teacher will often help the student identify the question. When the question is posed properly, there is a strong desire created to obtain the answer. It is like a hunger. In such hunger, the student will search until he finds the truth himself. Eventually, such a student will no longer need the teacher because he will teach   himself. Thus does the job of a great teacher always come to an end. Yet it never ends, because it will live on in the student who will now become the teacher of others."

Subject: RE: Then and now
Author: a sister
Date:   11/22/2000 12:12 am MST

How would you interpret the Lord's words when He says that He will teach us all things as fast as we are able to "bear" them? Thanks...

Subject: RE: more than can bear
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/22/2000 12:36 am MST

 (quote) How would you interpret the Lord's words when He says that He will teach us all things as fast as we are able to "bear" them? (end quote)

Well, maybe it would help to see the (two) sides? (God's view and man's view) Who is the limiting factor here?

Notice the phrase in Malachi that is often quoted by mormons in reference to tithing... that the Lord will open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing that you cannot contain (bear).

Does God err in this promise?

Perhaps (all) the gift(s) (by grace) have already been given (to us). Yes, right now. Perhaps it is carnal man who cannot receive (it). Why? Because he cannot bear it.

Randall

Subject: RE: Then and now
Author: a sister
Date:   11/22/2000 9:54 am MST

I'm curious as to what you mean about the polygamy subject. I don't believe in polygamy - ever. Are you saying that Joseph was meant to take it as a symbolical thing, or what? And how did Brigham pin it on Joseph. I don't understand. But I'm very interested to hear what you have to say on it.  OH, also - you mentioned that sacrificing beasts was only symbolic. How can that be? In the scriptures God gives them specific instructions on how to kill the animals. i.e. kill the bird, pour the  blood on the altar, remove this part and put it there, and that part and put it there, etc.

Thanks....

Subject: RE: Then and now
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/22/2000 12:22 am MST

 (quote) I'm curious as to what you mean about the polygamy subject. I don't believe in polygamy - ever. Are you saying that Joseph was meant to take it as a symbolical thing, or what? And how did Brigham pin it on Joseph. (end quote)

Well, this is a very long conversation that perhaps will take us far from this thread of the inverted star.
To just reply briefly as possible, I will just refer again to God telling the folks in the OT to "sacrifice the beast" and that they took it erroneously by thinking it meant to (literally) kill some (innocent) animal (eg. a lamb) rather than the beast that exists within themselves. These are the unacceptable sacrifice... the acceptable sacrifice is offering (on the altar) a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

The whole point is that there are several meanings that can be taken. Carnal man lives in perversion of the meaning by taking it literally.

Ask yourself this: Why is it that we think the existence of explicit instructions on (apparent) animal-killing in the Old Testament (penned by the purveyers of the mosaic-law) means that it has got to be literal rather than symbolic?   Isn't the Old Testament story of the Israelite people, really the story of the failure to understand what it means? Wasn't that Jesus's message?

Maybe it is the same with polygamy? Maybe there is a literal meaning that is the pitfall and an allegorical meaning (applying to each of us in the present time and place) that is profoundly meaningful? The literal meaning (one husband marrying many women) serves to separate (wo)man into castes (classes, tribes), but the allegorical meaning (the relationship of all men and women to God) unites into one?

Regarding the mainstream LDS historical view of polygamy (that Joseph taught it privately, but lied publically), I am hesitant to go there right now because, again, it is getting far off topic and, secondly  (and primarily), experience has shown me that it is a mine-field that seems to generate more heat than light. I commented a bit on it about six months back on the DO discussion group.... that I think Joseph told the truth (he didn't live it) and it was Brigham who lied. That is, I said that only one of the two lied rather than both of them (like LDS say). Got clobbered for it too... not that this matters, but it seems to have been more diversifying than edifying/uniting. But, maybe Sterling has archived some of it and you can go back and read it if there is an interest. Perhaps one can sift something valuable out of all of the name calling, posturing, and ill-will that seemed to rise out of the discussion.

Well, bringing us back to this particular discussion... I was only trying to suggest in the previous post that we make an error when we think the temple builders are "in the know". It is a similar thing when many of us look at the OT folks like Jacob, Moses, and Abraham. Many of us think that everything these fellows did must be good, because doesn't it say they were "holy men"... "accepted of God"? An alternate way to look at it is that these fellows were imperfect men who became (in the end) "holy and just." And the OT is their story. So, maybe the OT is primarily meant to show us pitfalls rather than it being a handbook of "how-to-do-it-right" (instructions). When Jacob stole his brother's birthright or deceived his own father, then maybe he was being unholy at the time... only to be purified later. When, Abraham took Hagar as a plural wife (well, "concubine" or slave-wife), maybe it is a story of "faith lacking" (that Sarai would yield a son) rather than the opposite? So, the OT is not a story of "men who are holy"... but rather the story of "how carnal men became (whole) holy." We should not take their mistakes to be virtues (as is often done).

Randall  

Subject: RE: Then and now
Author: a sister
Date:   11/22/2000 2:00 pm MST

I agree wholeheartedly about what you say concerning the holy men of the Old Testament. It seems to be human nature to look at their lives and think that since it's "in the scriptures" that it means it's all good and right. I used to feel that way, so all I can say is "there, but for the grace of God, go I." I can only thank the Lord that He has shown me that EVERYBODY is human and we all make our mistakes and have our pitfalls. And I think polygamy is defininately a pitfall and a stumbling block. If one looks at what a concubine really is, it alone is a testimony that polygamy isn't ordained of God. A concubine generally came from what was considered a "lower class" tribe, or someone from another city or village that didn't quite measure up. Concubines were very often considered as slaves, and were not given the same privileges and rights as the "normal" wife. They were even traded or sold to different people, especially kings - or given as 'gifts'. Is that equality? Men and women are supposed to be equal in holiness, and marriage is supposed to be filled with sanctity and beauty, not 'classing' people one over another. No, this union could not be ordained of God. Not in my opinion, anyway.

You're right - this subject is a whole new thread. But I would like to discuss it very much. I'll send you an email.  Thanks for the insights. Oh, but I did have one more comment: What about when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son - before he could do it, the Lord provided a ram in the thicket for the sacrifice. What do you say about that? Do you think the Lord actually could have given people instructions to kill the beasts because that's what they asked for, or had faith in? It was a more carnal way of doing it, because that's as far as they had advanced. So, he gave them what they asked for [ask and ye shall receive].   Maybe they were a bit too dense at the time? I dunno. Opinions?

~ A sister...

Subject: RE: Abrahamic sacrifice
Author: Randall  
Date:   11/23/2000 6:50 am MST

Since about this time last year, I have intended to write an essay commenting about the hidden meaning of the Abrahamic sacrifice and put it on my website, but it just seems to never get done.  You have inspired me to make a better effort.

In brief, it comes down to Abraham realizing what is meant by sacrificing his son, and then doing so.  Of course, all are familiar with the story that God told Abraham to "sacrifice his only son, Isaac", but Abraham had two sons (Isaac and Ismael) so it did not mean to kill Isaac, since he was not an only son. "Son" is a metaphor for what we ourselves have created and carnal man is so in love with his own creations that it keeps him in bondage. To see God, he must lay his own most-important creation (his "ownly" son) on the altar in sacrifice.

So, Abraham goes up the mountain with his son and on the mountain sees a ram stuck in a thicket by his horns. At this time (when he sees/recognizes it), the ram is (finally) behind him. Abraham himself, his own all-so-important ego/son is the ram. Carnal man will eventually find all of his efforts to earn his way into heaven will come to frustration... he eventually finds himself stuck in the thicket by his horns (of make-believe power). When this "altar"-ego is slain in sacrifice, a new man emerges.  The Abrahamic sacrifice is a pattern for every (wo)man.

Have you ever noticed in the OT account that it says that Abraham AND Isaac went up the mountain (cf. Gen 22:3), but only Abraham returned ("to his young men" -- Gen 22:19) from the mountain? Isn't that interesting?

You might want to take a look at the essay titled "The seed of Abraham" on my website for some offerings on what this means. Briefly, it is that the "seed of Abraham" which will "bless the earth" is a spiritual bloodline rather than a literal blood-posterity. Abraham's seed are those who "do the works of Abraham" (make the acceptable sacrifice).

Well, there is much more, but will have to be for another day (like what it means "to obey is better than sacrifice").

My wife wants me to get the turkey in the oven.

Randall